Introduction
What does it look like to have spent over 40 years in the Canadian mortgage industry — from a time when lenders would only count half a woman's income to qualify, all the way to today's AI-driven underwriting platforms? Elena Robinson, VP of Residential Sales at First National, has seen it all. And in this episode of the Mortgage Broker Podcast's Behind the Lender series, she sits down with Dean Lawton and Derek for a candid, insightful, and genuinely refreshing conversation about what makes First National tick, what the market looks like heading into the summer of 2025, and what brokers need to hear — whether they're brand new to the industry or seasoned veterans.
This is the kind of episode that reminds you why relationships aren't just a nice-to-have in this business. They're everything.
A Career Like No Other: Elena's Journey Through 40+ Years of Mortgages
Elena Robinson didn't stumble into mortgages — she built her entire career within the industry, starting at a small trust company called Victorian Grey Trust, where the norms of the era were, by today's standards, shocking. Only half of a woman's income could be used to qualify for a mortgage. Mortgage brokers were considered a last resort, and commissions — when they existed at all — averaged a mere $300 to $350 per deal.
"I started in this industry over 40 years ago. This industry was vastly different from what it is today." — Elena Robinson
From those early days, Elena moved into one of the most formative experiences of her career: joining First National as one of its very first employees — around the 8th or 10th hire — when it was still a startup. She also holds the distinction of being one of the very first BDMs in the Canadian mortgage industry, helping shape a role that has since become foundational to broker-lender relationships across the country.
After marrying and transitioning into mortgage brokering for over two decades, Elena returned to the lending side — and eventually back to First National in 2018 to help launch the Excalibur alternative lending program. That blend of lender experience, frontline brokering, and leadership gives her a perspective that is genuinely rare in this industry.
From BDM to VP: What Leadership in This Industry Really Looks Like
Moving from a high-performing individual contributor role into leadership isn't automatic — and Elena is clear-eyed about that reality. Not everyone who excels as a BDM is cut out to manage people, and she's seen it play out both ways.
"It's not about you anymore. As a BDM, you hustle for your own. Now it's about everyone on your team — trying to support them and bring them up." — Elena Robinson
For Elena, leadership is about recognizing potential in others and giving them the platform to grow. She describes tapping people on the shoulder — noticing untapped talent and encouraging them to step into sales or new roles they hadn't considered. It's a philosophy that has defined her approach at First National and contributed directly to the strength of their team culture.
Why First National Remains Broker-Exclusive — And Why That Matters More Than Ever
First National has never pursued a direct-to-consumer model. While other lenders have shifted strategies over the years, First National's commitment to the broker channel has remained unwavering. Elena puts it simply: their growth has been entirely built on the broker industry. Why change what works?
In today's competitive climate — with banks aggressively pricing to retain renewals and new entrants flooding the alternative space — this exclusivity is more meaningful than ever. For brokers, it means they're not competing against a different tier of the same lender's staff with better pricing. It means a partner that's fully invested in the broker channel's success, not just using it as one of many distribution arms.
"Our success, how we've grown to where we are today, has been entirely based on the mortgage broker industry. So why change that?" — Elena Robinson
Dean adds a timely reminder: in a world where some clients prioritize simplicity over rate, the case for a lender that does only mortgages — no accounts, no credit cards, no line-of-credit bundling — is one brokers should be making more confidently in their client conversations.
Relationships Are Your Real Competitive Advantage
Perhaps the most memorable thread running through this entire conversation is the emphasis on authentic, mutual relationships — between brokers and lenders, between BDMs and underwriters, and between brokers and their clients.
Elena's "booty call" analogy landed perfectly: if a broker only reaches out to First National when they've been burned elsewhere and need a miracle close, that's not a partnership. Real partnerships are built through consistent communication, mutual respect, and showing up when things are going well — not just when the house is on fire.
"A relationship is when you trust each other. I'm not your booty call." — Elena Robinson
For new brokers, she uses a dating analogy: your first few deals with a new lender are like a first date — everything is roses. But over time, as trust builds, you can start bringing the more complex files. The relationship has to be cultivated before it can carry weight.
Dean echoes this with a challenge to the broader broker community: most brokers have never met their underwriters. In a market where volume is flat and competition is intensifying, that relationship gap is a real liability. Taking an underwriter to lunch — even a $50 lunch near their office — can be the difference between a file getting moved to the top of the pile or sitting in the queue.
Excalibur: The Alternative Lending Program Built for Today's Borrowers
Elena calls Excalibur her "little baby" — and for good reason. She was brought back to First National in 2018 specifically to help relaunch it, recognizing the growing need for alternative solutions in the wake of the 2016 regulatory changes that tightened qualification rules for many self-employed and non-traditional borrowers.
Where prime lending is "pretty vanilla," Excalibur invites brokers to think outside the box. Elena describes the problem-solving nature of alternative files — piecing together income documentation, down payment structures, and creative solutions in a way that genuinely serves clients who simply don't fit a standard qualification mold.
- New 60/60 ratio guidelines recently launched, expanding lending flexibility
- ARM and hold-pose products currently in development
- AI-powered credit app tools now analyzing bank statements more efficiently for income verification
- Alternative volume across the industry has grown by over 30% year-over-year
Elena is emphatic: alternative borrowers — largely self-employed or gig-economy workers — are great clients. They pay reliably, they value speed and solutions over rate, and they represent a growing segment of the market that too many brokers are still referring away out of discomfort. Her advice? Stop giving those files away. Call your BDM and work through it together.
"They're actually great clients. The mindset 5 years ago was that they were a lesser type of individual. They're not. They pay better than salaried individuals." — Elena Robinson
Merlin, AI, and the Future of Underwriting Technology
First National's proprietary platform, Merlin, was originally the brainchild of company co-founder Stephen Smith — built over a weekend. Today, it underpins their industry-leading 4-hour turnaround commitment, providing real-time timestamping of submissions, deal tracking, and designated underwriter workflows.
With Brookfield and Birchall now in the picture, First National is actively investing in AI tools to enhance Merlin's capabilities — particularly around fraud detection, document review, and the administrative processing of bank statements. The goal isn't to replace human judgment in underwriting; it's to accelerate the science so the art can shine through.
Elena is clear: there will always be an art and a science to underwriting. AI can improve the science. The human relationship — the empathy, the creative problem-solving, the trust — that's what makes a great mortgage experience for a client, and no algorithm replaces it.
As Dean points out, models like Rocket Mortgage have already tested the "automated mortgage experience" thesis. It didn't work. Clients research online, but they want to speak to a human when it matters most.
What Brokers Are Getting Wrong When They Submit Deals
One of the most practical segments of the episode covers what actually happens when a deal lands in First National's system — and where brokers most commonly slow themselves down.
The answer? Notes. Or the lack thereof.
"If you got hit by a bus and your coworker had to pick up that file, could they understand everything about it based on your notes?" — Elena Robinson
A well-documented deal with strong notes can generate an approval in under an hour. A file submitted with "Refi, please approve" and nothing else? That's going to generate a call — and delay everyone involved. Elena's team still regularly sees deals with no notes at all, despite how often the message is communicated.
Other key submission insights from Elena:
- Designated underwriters are strongly encouraged — familiarity with a broker's book speeds up everything
- Policy exceptions always exist — if something looks like a no, talk to your BDM before walking away
- Escalations happen through the BDM and are welcomed — it's not blame, it's problem-solving
- A change in client circumstances is often a legitimate reason for escalation, not a reason to abandon the file
Market Conditions Heading Into Summer 2025: A Frank Assessment
The conversation turns to current market dynamics, and Elena doesn't sugarcoat it. The beginning of 2025 showed promise — volumes were building, optimism was returning. Then came trade war anxiety, tariff uncertainty, and a broad sense of economic caution that has many would-be buyers sitting on the fence.
But here's the contrarian take Elena and Dean share: this might be exactly the right time to buy.
- Home values in many markets are down from their 2022 peaks — meaning lower down payments and better affordability
- Rates, while not at pandemic lows, are reasonable by historical standards (Elena reminds us she's seen 21% rates)
- Buyers waiting for the "perfect" rate or property are often letting their financial plan drift with no real reason
- The market is cyclical — and buying in the valley, not at the peak, has always been the smarter move
"If it drops another 3%, who cares? You're in a house. You're not paying somebody else's mortgage by paying rent." — Elena Robinson
The takeaway for brokers: reframe the conversation. Get back to your clients' financial goals and life plans. A 25 basis point rate movement should not be overriding a family's decision about where they're going to live and raise their children.
Back to Basics: What Separates Thriving Brokers From Struggling Ones Right Now
In a slower market, Elena's message to brokers mirrors what she demands of her own sales team: get back to basics. Make the calls. Be consistent. Be persistent. Allocate time every day for outreach to referral partners and past clients — and don't stop after five attempts.
"On average, you have to make 10 calls to one person to get them interested. Most people give up after five." — Harvard sales professor, cited by Elena Robinson
The brokers who are winning right now are the ones who never stopped prospecting. The years of reactive, inbound-heavy volume spoiled some habits — and those habits are showing up in year-over-year volume declines for many in the industry. The antidote is simple: hustle, relationships, and consistency.
Key Takeaways
- Build real lender relationships before you need them. Don't make your lender your "booty call." Invest in those relationships during good times so you have advocates when files get complicated.
- Meet your underwriters. Most brokers haven't. A lunch, a visit, even an email of genuine appreciation goes further than most brokers realize.
- Stop referring away your alternative files. Excalibur and the broader alternative space are growing fast. Self-employed borrowers are excellent clients. Call your BDM and learn how to work these files confidently.
- Write proper deal notes. A well-documented submission can get approved in under an hour. A bare-bones submission creates delays and friction for everyone.
- Reframe the rate conversation with clients. Help them connect their mortgage decision to their actual financial and life goals — not a 25 bps swing or the hope that inventory improves slightly.
- Get back to basics. Make the calls. Reach out to referral partners. Be consistent and persistent. The brokers doing this are still winning.
- AI enhances, not replaces, broker value. The repeatable, cookie-cutter pieces of mortgage processing will be automated — freeing brokers to do what only humans can: build trust, navigate complexity, and advocate for their clients.
Why You Should Listen to This Episode
Elena Robinson is a rare voice in this industry — someone who has lived every side of the mortgage business over four decades. She's been the underwriter, the BDM, the mortgage broker, and now the VP leading one of Canada's most respected lender sales teams. She speaks candidly, brings real analogies that stick, and offers perspective that only comes from that kind of depth of experience.
Whether you're trying to figure out how to work better with your lender partners, understand the alternative lending landscape, navigate a slower market, or simply be reminded why this industry is worth investing in for the long haul — this episode delivers on all of it.
It's honest. It's practical. And it's exactly the kind of conversation the broker channel needs more of right now.
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